Boonkanjanaram


Foreign Experiences Interviews with 'Mr. Mike'

(The following sample of practice interviews represent only a few of the interviews conducted with the English monk Mahaviro ('Mr. Mike'). It takes many weeks of teaching of dhamma and practice to prepare a student adequately for Satipatthana Practice.)

The first day
Mr. Chua : Rupa and Nama that is the object of vipassana, do you understand and remember what it is?
Mr. Mike : Yes, I understand and remember.
Mr. Chua : When seeing or hearing, what is rupa and what is nama?
Mr. Mike : When seeing, the color and shape of the object is rupa, seeing is nama. When hearing, the sound of the object is rupa, hearing is nama.
Mr. Chua : The four positions-sitting, standing, lying, and walking - are they rupa or nama?
Mr. Mike : Rupa.
Mr. Chua : What rupa?
Mr. Mike : When sitting, it's sitting rupa, when lying, it's lying rupa, when standing, it's standing rupa, when walking, it's walking rupa.
Mr. Chua : When seeing or hearing, are you observing rupa or nama?
Mr. Mike : I observe nama.
Mr. Chua : What nama?
Mr. Mike : When seeing I observe nama seeing, when hearing I observe nama hearing.
Mr. Chua : Wandering mind, aversion, thinking - all of these - are they rupa or nama?
Mr. Mike : It is nama wandering, nama with aversion, and nama thinking.
Mr. Chua : When wandering mind occurs, are you observing the story of wandering mind or how do you observe?
Mr. Mike : When wandering mind occurs, I observe nama wandering - not the story of wandering mind - and I have awareness that wandering mind is nama - and come back to the present moment, such as sitting rupa.
Mr. Chua : You are better. You remember what rupa and what nama and you know how to observe. Try to have awareness observe what rupa or what nama. You cannot neglect rupa and nama because they are the object of vipassana practice. If you don't have awareness of what rupa and what nama, it is not called vipassana practice. In the beginning I would like you to observe only sitting rupa, standing rupa, etc.

Next day
Mr. Chua : When seeing how do you observe?
Mr. Mike : I observe nama seeing.
Mr. Chua : What do you observe with?
Mr. Mike : I observe with awareness (earnestness, mindfulness, and clear comprehension).
Mr. Chua : When hearing how do you observe?
Mr. Mike : I observe with awareness that nama is hearing.
Mr. Mike : Sitting I have awareness of sitting rupa sitting I have awareness of walking rupa.
Mr. Chua : Sitting rupa - what is it?
Mr. Mike : The posture at that time is sitting rupa.
Mr. Chua : Walking rupa - what is it?
Mr. Mike : The way you walk is walking rupa..
Mr. Chua : How do you know it is sitting rupa, walking rupa?
Mr. Mike : I know only by mind.
Mr. Chua : What do you mean by mind?
Mr. Mike : The way I sit, that is sitting rupa. The way I walk is walking rupa. We must know this by mind, not by eye. Even if you close your eye, you know it is sitting rupa.
Mr. Chua : Sitting rupa, walking rupa - does the eye see it?
Mr. Mike : The eye sees only colour or shape. The eye cannot see sitting rupa, etc.
Mr. Chua : When you know sitting rupa, are you thinking or do you know by another way?
Mr. Mike : I know by awareness that it is sitting rupa.
Mr. Chua :Thinking (verbalizing) or awareness - are they different or the same?
Mr. Mike : Thinking means to think sitting rupa over and over in the mind. But awareness means to know the way you sit - and that is sitting rupa.
Mr. Chua : You are right. You have to have awareness about what rupa and what nama continuously. You cannot observe just rupa - it has to be sitting rupa, you cannot observe just nama, you have to observe nama hearing, etc. You have to know each rupa and nama are not the same. Otherwise you'll think one rupa sits, walks, stands, and you'll think one nama is thinking, daydreaming, angry, etc. The benefit of this is, when you know each rupa and nama are not the same the perception of compactness that cause you to think there is 'self' in rupa and nama will separate. And the truth will be realized that rupa and nama are anatta - without self.

3rd Meeting - Jan. 29, 1986
Mr. Chua : When walking do you know why you walk?
Mr. Mike : To see walking rupa.
Mr. Chua : That is not right. You have to have awareness that you are walking to cure suffering. If I ask you whenever you have suffering, where did it come from, what would you say?
Mr. Mike : It came from the old position.
Mr. Chua : When walking, what position do you observe?
Mr. Mike : I observe walking rupa.
Mr. Chua : Why do you observe walking rupa?
Mr. Mike : To destroy the wrong view that thinks 'we' walk. The truth is walking rupa walks.
Mr. Chua : Walking rupa, what do you observe - and how?
Mr. Mike : We observe the way we walk - and we observe with awareness - not by the eyes.
Mr. Chua : Who owns walking rupa?
Mr. Mike : Walking rupa has no owner, it's not 'me' it's sabhava - the true state of the nature. It's not me, it's sabhava that walks.
Mr. Chua : You are right. Walking rupa is sabhava. Nobody owns walking rupa. Do you understand what sabhava is?
Mr. Mike : Sabhava is the nature that exists and it is in the present moment.
Mr. Chua : That's not exactly right. Sabhava is the true state of the nature that is no man,woman, or self and it exists - and is called ultimate reality.
Mr. Mike : Is sabhava the present moment or not?
Mr. Chua : Sabhava that is rupa and nama always exist, but we don't always see it in normal existence. But with earnestness, mindfulness and clear comprehension in Satipatthana, we see it in the present moment. Right now, you, Mahaviro, are sitting. This is sabhava - sabahava of rupa and nama. This always exists. But Mahaviro clings to 'I sit'. The fact is that sabhava is sitting. Mahaviro clings to 'I sit' is the wrong view. The way you sit, stand, walk, lie is the truth of sabhava. But Mahaviro thinks 'we' sit, stand, walk is defilement. Defilement clings to sabhava as 'us'. The way you practice will destroy the wrong view that clings to the illusion that sabhava is 'us'.
When Mahaviro is walking, that walking is walking rupa. If you understand this, it is right. Because it is sabhava: this is the result of vipassana wisdom - which occurs from the right cause, which is Satipatthana done in the right way.
When you are walking and walking rupa feels suffering it means that walking rupa suffers. So you have to change from walking rupa to standing rupa to cure suffering. So walking rupa is the old position. Standing rupa is the new position. All four positions - one position is always changing to another, from the old to the new, and then the new becomes the old. Do you know why? Because suffering forces the position to change. Suffering is the sabhava that always forces the old to change to the new - all the time-never ending, so long as rupa and nama exist. What do you think - which posture is happy?
Mr. Mike : None.
Mr. Chua : All four positions - there is no happiness in any of them. Only suffering, cure suffering, all the time until you go to sleep. When you wake up, suffering and cure suffering begins all over. This is the way sabhava works. But the wrong view that 'we' think, 'we' sit is there, and when suffering occurs, the wrong view thinks we will walk and lie down to be comfortable. The fact is, no posture is comfortable. Only suffer, cure suffering, all day, all night, until sleep. That is sabhava. It's like this - no man, no woman, no self in sabhava.
Therefore, you come to practice to observe the four postures and when you reach the truth you are going to destroy defilement, you are going to destroy the wrong view that thinks rupa is self.
I would like to ask you - sitting rupa is it permanent or impermanent?
Mr. Mike : Impermanent.
Mr. Chua : How do you know?
Mr. Mike : Because you have to change the position very often.
Mr. Chua : Being forced to change is impermanence. Because suffering forces you to change, suffering is also demonstrated. Since change cannot be controlled that is not-self (anatta). Anatta means out of control.
You have seen the four positions are impermanent, suffering, and not-self with cinta wisdom (by practice).The Three characteristics - impermanent, suffering, not-self are Natural Law : everybody is subject to the law - no exceptions. The poor, the rich, Brahma, or any God : They are sabhava, and can't escape from this law.
When rupa-nama occurs, rupa-nama gets old, sick and dies. If one doesn't know this Natural Law he will continue to suffer and can't break the chain of suffering. Nobody knows where the beginning of rupa and nama is and the end.
You come to practice satipatthana to know the truth of sabhava as it is. You are going to realize the harmfulness of sabhava, you're going to feel disgust, and after you feel disgust you're going to feel no pleasure in rupa and nama (release). And so you are going to reach the end of rebirth-no more old age sickness and death.
You come to practice the four positions. If you follow the four positions only, the four positions can end suffering. There are 44 objects in the four Foundations of Mindfulness. You only need one object, the four positions, in order to end suffering. The four positions are fit for the character of these times, which are times where people have craving and weak wisdom. It's also easier to practice the four positions than the other three foundations.
When we change the position we don't have to follow any regular pattern but change to whatever tends to cure suffering. Even sitting rupa has many different positions. Just as when we eat we must know every bite is to cure suffering. And when we chew we have to know that we have to chew to cure suffering. That prevents like and dislike for the food. And you are going to feel, when you eat, suffering forces you to eat. You're going to feel every thing you do is suffering and cure suffering.

Fourth day - Jan. 30, 1986
Mr. Chua : How is your practice?
Mr. Mike : In the day-time I have wandering mind less, but at night I have more and cannot sleep.
Mr. Chua : Wandering mind about what?
Mr. Mike : Thinking about going back to England. I cannot sleep the whole night.
Mr. Chua : Wandering mind is good or not? You don't like wandering mind?
Mr. Mike : No, I don't like it.
Mr. Chua : If you don't like wandering mind that is aversion. If you want your mind to be peaceful, to be in the present moment, that is desire. Wandering mind occurs because you are thinking about the future or the past. That means you are out of the present moment. When wandering mind occurs just come back to the present moment. The reason you cannot sleep all night is because you think you have very little time left in Thailand, so you try very hard to be in the present moment with desire. This make you have tension, and so you cannot sleep. You should take a tranquilizer. You should write down what you plan to do when you go back to England - and then forget it. That's the way to have less wandering mind. Then two days before you leave you can read what you put down.
Mr. Mike : That's a good idea.
Mr. Chua : To be a monk here you have two duties : study theory and use that theory to practice. You have to know these duties of Buddhism : study theory and practice vipassana to end suffering. Suffering is rupa and nama. That defilement that clings to rupa and nama is 'us', self.
Wandering mind is dhamma. It is also defilement - one of the hindrances. It hinders us from reaching wholesome states (kusula). Wandering mind is not self - it's not a man not a woman : it is ultimate reality. It is unwholesome, and it is impermanent, suffering and not self. Wandering mind is not Mr. Mike, it's not you. Can you prevent wandering mind?
Mr. Mike : No I cannot prevent it. I can just know it is wandering mind and then come back to the present moment.
Mr. Chua : That's right. Nobody in Samsara (the round of rebirths) can prevent wandering mind. Nobody can control wandering mind - because it is anatta. Nobody can control getting old, sick and dying.
You come to practice in order to get rid of defilement, which is in the feeling - that is to say, in nama. Wandering mind is the defilement that prevents vipassana wisdom from occurring in the present moment.
Why do we say the present moment is very important? First, we should know that the present moment does not mean mind just being in the present, as is often thought. The present moment is when nama and rupa occurs at a given time independently of our desire - that is to say, without defilement. We say the present moment is very important, because when the present moment is realized, vipassana wisdom can occur - and this wisdom will lead to realizing the Four Noble Truths - which occurs at the 14th yana. When the mind is composed of earnestness, mindfulness and clear comprehension, that mind is in the present moment, and that mind has morality, concentration and wisdom (sila,samadhi and panna) in the Eight-Fold Path. Morality erases obvious defilement in body and speech. Concentration suppresses mental defilements, that we call hindrances. Wisdom erases hidden defilement, called cankers, that have the wrong view that 'we sit', 'we stand', 'we walk' atc. This is the benefit of the present moment in Satipatthana practice.

5th Meeting-Jan. 31, 1986
(Mr. Mike was sick and stayed in the hospital one day)
Mr. Chua : You were sick and stayed in the hospital. That means rupa got sick and nama felt bad about it - or felt restless. Because when rupa and nama arise, eleven kinds of suffering follow - just as happened to you. Do you realize the harm that rupa and nama can lead to?
Mr. Mike : Yes. I realize it. If rupa and nama exist, suffering will follow.
Mr. Chua : If the Five Aggregates - or rupa and nama - exist, whatever form of becoming (life) you have, you will be the prisoner of that becoming. There is no refuge, no safety in any becoming. Wherever rupa and nama occur in any becoming, you will be punished by that rupa and nama, by sickness, old age, ,and death. Plus sorrow, lamentation, pain, despair, etc. Do you understand?
Mr. Mike : Yes. I understand. If there is no rupa and nama all of eleven kinds of suffering cannot occur.
Mr. Chua : Yesterday we were talking about the three requirements for the object of vipassana practice:
1) The object has to be rupa and nama - which is ultimate reality - that is, not a man, not a woman, not self. That which is ultimate reality is the only object you can meditate on in Satipatthana. Conventional reality such as "Mr. Mike", "I see" "I hear" is not a suitable object in Satipatthana.
2) That object must be in one of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness.
3) The object must be observed with earnestness, mindfulness, and clear comprehension.For example, when sitting, the object of the 3 nama (earnestness, mindfulness, and clear comprehension) is sitting rupa and the present moment.
This awareness (earnestness, mindfulness, and clear comprehension) has the wisdom that knows rupa and nama are not us, not self. This is the real Satipatthana - the 3 nama, or 'awareness' are the actual practitioner, not 'us'. The purpose of Satipatthana is to destroy like and dislike in the Five Aggregates. When wisdom occurs and realizes suffering, for example, in sitting rupa, it's going to change the wrong view of the mind that the posture of sitting is not 'us' not self - it's just the true state of the nature (sabhava).
When you understand the principles of Satipatthana, the practice should be easy. When you have awareness (mindfulness, and clear comprehension) in the present moment you will know it, or if you are out of the present moment you will know it too. Besides this, there is another dhamma that helps practice : that is proper consideration, which we call yoniso-manasikara. In full, yoniso means "to fix one's attention on something with right understanding as to the cause." Yoniso prevents defilement from entering. For example, when sitting, knowing sitting rupa suffers prevents like or dislike from getting in. It is not 'you' that sits or suffers - so this prevents dislike. Yoniso knows that sitting rupa must change the position to cure suffering and this prevents like for the new position. Another helper is observation (sikkhati). This tells us if the practice is right or wrong. And when wandering mind occurs, observation tells us that mind is out of the present moment. When earnestness and mindfulness work together, we can summarize them as concentration (samadhi) and then when clear comprehension, which we call wisdom, is added in, plus proper consideration (yoniso) and observation (sikkhati) - working together they will destroy the wrong view (moha). Like and dislike have to be destroyed, then at the same time the wisdom of the 3 nama (earnestness, mindfulness, and clear comprehension) can enter to destroy wrong view (moha). That wrong view thinks sitting rupa is 'us' is self.

6th Meeting - Feb.. 1, 1986
Mr. Chua : Buddhism is a 'universal philosophy' - it describes the true state of the nature of the living universe : mental states, composed of mental properties (=citta - cetasika), matter (rupa) and nibbana. The Lord Buddha discovered this true state of the nature and taught us how to realize it through meditation practice, and thus end suffering. Realizing this true state of the nature is the only end or goal of Buddhism.
One who understands practice, following the principles of Satipatthana is the one who knows how to follow the teaching of the Lord Buddha, as outlined in the 37 Qualities leading to Enlightenment (Bodhipakkhiyadhamma). The 37 Qualities are the Middle Way starting with Satipatthana; they end up with the Eight-Fold Path, where the Four Noble Truths are realized and suffering is ended. The 37 Qualities are Buddhism.
Mental States (citta-cetasika) and matter (rupa) are suffering (dukkha-sacca). They (citta-cetasika-rupa) are in Mr. Mike, in every nama-rupa. And who creates this truth of suffering (dukkha-sacca)? It is craving (the 3 tanha -- or Samudaya, the Second Noble Truth) that is the cause of suffering. Each time dukkha-sacca is created, the craving is in dukkha-sacca and is continually reborn without end. Craving is inherent in dukkha-sacca.
Nobody creates us, we create ourselves : It is easy to say 'Mr. Mike', or 'me' or 'I' - and this defilement creates ourselves. As long as this defilement is not extinguished, it will continually create us, birth after birth. The way you practice right now, this is Satipatthana and it is the most important teaching in Buddhism. We practice this in order to realize the dhamma that extinguishes defilement and suffering. That is nibbana. Satipatthana, according to Buddhism, is the one, the only way to the end of suffering. Because Satipatthana is morality, concentration and wisdom. For example when observing sitting rupa with earnestness, mindfulness and clear comprehension, we are in the present moment, and at that time we have morality, concentration and wisdom. So if I ask you can you develop morality first until morality is perfect, then develop concentration until concentration is perfect, and then develop wisdom until it is perfect - is this correct?
Mr. Mike : No. They have to be developed together.
Mr. Chua : Why is this so?
(Mr. Mike couldn't answer)
Mr. Chua : If we practice morality until morality is perfect - how many years will it be until morality is perfect? Or will you die first? When morality is perfect, can you then practice concentration, and how long until this is perfect? Morality erases obvious defilement. Concentration suppresses mental defilement (hindrances). So how long will it take to completely suppress hindrances? And then you still have to develop wisdom to erase hidden defilements. Therefore, morality, concentration and wisdom in the Eight-Fold Path have to be developed simultaneously. If morality, concentration and wisdom are not done together it is not yogavacara (earnestness, mindfulness and clear comprehension). You must have morality concentration and wisdom, all together, to have yogavacara. If you leave out one, it is not yogavacara.

(At this point another student asked a question)
Student. Can we do concentration first, until it is very good and then do wisdom later.
Mr. Chua : What type of concentration do you mean? There are types of concentration : momentary concentration (kanika samadhi), high concentration (upacara samadhi) and one pointedness (apana samadhi).
Student. I would take high concentration (upacara samadhi).
Mr. Chua :Upacara samadhi is high concentration almost up to one pointedness, and is very peaceful.That level is too high for vipassana wisdom to arise. Vipassana practice can have only momentary concentration, because momentary concentration allows you to change the object. For example, when we observe sitting rupa, if a sound occurs, we can change to observe nama hearing.
And how do you know nama and rupa hasn't appeared yet? This is nama and rupa. Right now you are observing nama and rupa. but it is cinta panna.
Practicing vipassana, if you want to feel enjoyment, this is not vipassana. In correct vipassana there is no enjoyment. If you see more dukkha the mind becomes drier (more wisdom) and kilesa is reduced. Can I ask you, are you observing nama-rupa continuously or not?

7th Meeting - Feb. 6th, 1986
Mr. Chua : How is your practice?
Mr. Mike : The last 2 or 3 days I observed nama seeing, nama hearing very often by practice wisdom (cinta wisdom). And one time in sitting rupa I had the feeling very strong and very briefly, that there is no me. And I have never had this feeling before.
Mr. Chua : What is not me?
Mr. Mike : I don't know. Just that it is not me. And after that I felt very sad and depressed, and had this feeling for two hours. I could not come back to 'me' again.
Mr. Chua : Is it rupa or nama that's not you?
Mr. Mike : I don't know. Because this time it is not clear, like before, when I saw sitting rupa is not me. Because it is very brief.
Mr. Chua : What position were you in at that time?
Mr. Mike : Sitting But the feeling was very brief, so I can't explain. The first time I saw sitting rupa was not me, that was clear. But I wasn't frightened like this time. This time there was just the strong feeling that it was not me. I wanted to feel like a normal person again. But I couldn't do it. It lasted until evening, and then I stopped practice.
Mr. Chua : You couldn't come back to normal - what do you mean by normal.
Mr. Mike : I would have the feeling of just being a normal person.
Mr. Chua : At this time when you are observing sitting rupa, nama was the one who observed it. Before this you had the wrong view that 'you' are observing sitting rupa. But when mindfulness and clear comprehension got better, wisdom saw that what was observing sitting rupa was not 'you'. You haven't had this feeling since before you were born. To see nama is not you, is very hard to catch. Because every time you see, you think 'you' see, every time you hear, you think 'you' hear. Whatever nama occurs - love, hatred, etc - you have the wrong view it is you - all day, all night.
Consciousness or nama, we cannot see, hear or touch. No taste, no odour. Nama is the nature that knows. For example, mind has lust, mind has aversion - this is nama. And concentration and clear comprehension, this nama. Nama can know nama. Nama can know rupa.
In the world there are only two things : rupa-dhamma, nama-dhamma. If you don't see rupa is not you, you are going to see nama. When you were sitting, nama observed sitting rupa, but the 3 nama, instead of observing sitting rupa, knew that nama was not you - because nama saw nama without desire. And you don't know what it is, because you have never seen this before. You have the wrong view and you have been clinging to nama is you - and not just in this life. When the wrong view has been changed to the right view and the truth of sabhava is seen, defilement that clings to nama is 'you' becomes frightened - and sadness, depression and so many feelings occur, because these feelings would like to come back to the feeling of 'we' - which is the wrong view again.
Buddhism is a universal philosophy; this means that the truths of Buddhism are true everywhere and for everybody. These truths - unlike certain mundane scientific truths, which are proved by looking outside of oneself - are proved by observation of one's own body and mind. You come to practice and prove these truths, following the command of the Lord Buddha "Paccatan veditabbo vinnuhi", "to be seen each man for himself." Even if you have seen a little bit of the truth of sabhava, that is not a man, a woman, not self, it is of benefit for you. You know it by yourself : nobody can know it with you.
Mr. Mike : On Sunday my friends came to visit me and asked me, how is Buddhism And I said "It is not me" and they looked at me like I have changed, and they have very much doubt and they were like I was before I was ordained. Because I talk about something they have never felt. They have never practiced, so they don't understand. They think I am crazy.
Mr. Chua : I would like to tell you a story, suppose you were a turtle and you could live both in the water and on the land. You can see the difference between the land and the water. The land has good food, T. V. radio, etc. So the turtle goes down into the water and the fish ask him where were you? And the turtle says I went up to the land. And the fish asked, does the land have clear water to live in? And the turtle said no. Does the land have dirty water? The turtle said no. The land has so many things that are different from the water. The turtle tried to explain but the fish could not understand. It is the same with you: you tried to explain about vipassana wisdom but your friends cannot understand. Because they are in the mundane world, the world of defilement: It's different from yours. You have seen the world without defilement, a little bit.

8th Meeting - Feb. 7, 1986
Mr. Chua : The present moment is very important with vipassana practice. The present moment of what? The present moment of yogavacara - (earnestness, mindfulness, and clear comprehension). These three nama (yogavacara) work together, therefore the benefit of the present moment is that it leads you to realize the truth of sabhava. Right now you are sitting. What is the present moment?
Mr. Mike : Sitting rupa is the present moment.
Mr. Chua : The way the body is disposed is sitting rupa? (no answer.) The entire posture of sitting is sitting rupa. You have to observe the correct shape of the posture with sitting rupa, standing rupa, etc. If you don't observe in the right way, vipassana wisdom cannot occur, and therefore the wrong view that thinks body and mind is one, and is 'us' cannot be changed. - Who is the owner of sitting rupa?
Mr. Mike : Nobody owns sitting rupa. It is sabhava that takes the sitting position.
Mr. Chua : That's right.
The present moment is very important, because it will lead to vipassana wisdom, and show the truth of sabhava, not man, not woman, not self. This sabhava is really the five aggregates, or rupa and nama - and it is inherently suffering (dukkha - sacca), Rupa is the sabhava that doesn't know, while nama, the other four aggregates (feeling,perception, volition, consciousness), is that which knows.
You come to practice here to prove the teaching of the Lord Buddha. If the practice is correct, the truth that is sabhava is realized by the 3 nama which observe sitting rupa, standing rupa, etc., with a mind that has earnestness, mindfulness and clear comprehension in the present moment.
The first step : The 3 nama has to realize the truth of sabhava, that is not a man, not a woman, not self, until it is clear. After that, it's going to change the wrong view that thinks rupa and nama are not us, not self. After that, wisdom will realize the characteristic of sabhava - that it is impermanent, suffering and not self. It's like (looking at) a tiger, you have to first see the tiger, then you can see the stripes of the tiger.
You have seen sitting rupa is not you -no you in sitting rupa - that means you have seen sabhava. The way you sit is an expression of sabhava. You know about rupa - nama or the Five Aggregates. But you know only the names, you know only theory. If you don't practice according to the principle of Satipatthana, as contained in the Maha-satipatthana Discourse, it will be difficult to realize the truth of sabhava in yourself. If you don't realize this, you will think body and mind are you, are self. Who clings to rupa - nama. as self?
Mr. Mike : Defilement, wrong view.
Mr. Chua : Craving and wrong view come together; when the wrong view occurs, craving occurs too. They are the aiding condition for clinging (attachment). Clinging about what? Clinging to the five Aggregates or rupa-nama as us. And as a result of this, rupa and nama are reborn. Nobody knows when nama-rupa began or when they will end.
It is not important when nama-rupa occurred, because it is the past. But the important thing is the cycle of birth and suffering of rupa and nama. Because defilement has been clinging to rupa and nama for a long time. How are we going to cut this chain? By the practice - and then rupa and nama perish.
Mr. Mike : I have a question about Buddhism. When the one who has seen sabhava and has extinguished defilement completely - why does that one still have compassion? I could not explain to my friends when they came to visit me.
Mr. Chua : The Lord Buddha and the arahants, they have no defilement. They know that .Mr. Frank, my self, or Mr. Mike are suffering - which is birth, decay, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation - so the arahant feels compassion. Compassion about the sabhava that is covered by defilement, and makes people suffer. He wants to see them free from defilement, as he is.
Mr. Mike : My friends asked me if everybody becomes an arahant, who would take care of the business of the world - growing food, teaching school, building houses, etc.
Mr. Chua : The state of arahant is not easy to reach. Even the right way to end suffering is difficult to understand. There are so many wrong ways to practice. So it's not likely the whole world would become arahants. Your friends came to visit you. If you tell them you have seen there is no 'us' no 'self', they won't understand. Even those who understand the practice, until they reach sabhava, find it very difficult. Don't talk about arahant, that is too high a level to discuss practically. Even the stream-winner path is difficult to reach. You yourself have seen sabhava a little bit, your mind has changed from the wrong view, you have never had this feeling before. Before it was 'we', 'we'. Which part of the body is 'we' ? (no answer).
If we look at any particular part of the body, we see that that particular part contains no 'we' , no self. Wrong view about self occurs in nama. Whenever the wrong view of self occurs, the feeling of 'we' is in that place. For example 'we see', 'we hear' is the wrong view. But seeing and hearing is just nama hearing, nama seeing. 'We' is defilement. You have seen sabhava just a little bit - you feel sad, you feel depressed, because defilement clings. That defilement clings to rupa and nama as 'us' - but rupa and nama are just energy and nama is also No solid body, no single, unchanging mind - impermanent. suffering and not self.
Mr. Mike : Why is Buddhism so difficult to understand? Other religions, when you go to church, or listen to a priest, are easier to understand.
Mr. Chua : Buddhism is very difficult because the teaching of the Lord Buddha is to get rid of defilement - because defilement created you, and right now that defilement is inherent in you. And defilement in you doesn't want to get rid of defilement. You have to practice according to the teaching of the Lord Buddha only and then defilement will subside. When wisdom realizes absolutely that Mr.Mike is the truth of suffering (dukkha - sacca) , defilement will be eradicated completely and end suffering. That is why Buddhism is difficult to practice. It is difficult to understand, because to properly practice, to get rid of defilement, one must have a deep and sure understanding of the dhamma.
As to ending suffering and getting rid of defilement, I would like to point out that suffering in Buddhism means rupa and nama and to end suffering, it means no more rupa and nama because they are inherently suffering (dukkha - sacca). You have to get rid of them, because defilement is the cause of rupa and nama, which is inherently suffering (dukkha - sacca). When the cause (defilement) is extinguished the result (dukkha - sacca) or rupa - nama are extinguished. No more rebirth, no more rupa and nama in any becoming.
Who depends on Brahma, God, and sacred things ? Defilement depends on these. The truth is, we should have self-reliance, which really is reliance on dhamma, to end suffering. That is the principle of Buddhism.
The way to practice to get rid of defilement is very difficult. When defilement creates 'you', it makes you suffer from birth, decay, old age and death. Everybody in the world, suffers, as you do. Wars, fighting and killing in the world, occur because of desire, aversion, and delusion - which exist in everybody. These are basic forms of defilement - the root causes. If anyone comes to practice here, like you, and realizes the truth of sabhava as it is, you don't have to teach that person compassion, he will realize by himself. It is as if we were in a mud-hole and we know how to climb out - so we want to show the others the way out of the mud-hole. The mud-hole is like the hole of birth, Nearly everybody in the world thinks they are happy or are going to be happy how are you going to teach them to end suffering ? Because they don't want to give up their happiness to end suffering. It is a price they are not willing to pay.

9th Meeting - Feb. 10, 1986
Mr. Chua : How has your awareness been for the last three days?
Mr. Mike : The last two days I had more earnestness. Saturday I had a lot of defilement - wandering mind. I didn't like it. I wanted wandering mind to disappear. I knew that that was aversion. And the next day it was the same. But I still continued practice until 6 p.m. Nothing happened. So I got bored. I stopped practice and lay down. Suddenly, I heard one drop from the tap into the water pot in the bathroom. I felt frightened like I had an electric shock or fell off a cliff. Because that hearing was not me hearing. But it was nama hearing.
Mr. Chua : It was not you that heard.
Mr. Mike : Yes. It was not me that heard and I felt very frightened.
Mr. Chua : Just a little bit, right ? It's not you that heard just a little bit.
Mr. Mike : Yes. But the feeling was very strong.Like I had an electric shock, but it was not too long. I knew that it was nama hearing - not me that heard.
Mr. Chua : Was it this time very strong, like you have seen suffering, like you have seen sitting rupa is not you, nama is not you ?
Mr. Mike : This time it was the strongest and very clear but the feeling of being depressed didn't last too long.
Mr. Chua : That hearing is nama. Nama is sabhava-dhamma. It's not 'we' . It's not 'we' that hear. It's the sabhava, or the nature of nama - which is to know. Before you had the feeling that 'we' hear - but now you know that hearing is not 'you'. Hearing is the nature that knows. The way that you will see the sabhava like this is to practice in the right way, according to the teaching of the Lord Buddha. This is the wisdom that realizes the truth of sabhava.
Mr. Mike : At that time I had good yoniso, I had good awareness, everything was just right, as I started to lie down.
Mr. Chua : Why ? Why were mindfulness, clear comprehension and earnestness equal ? Like still water. Do you know ?
Mr. Mike : The first two days when I practiced, I was very serious. After that I just tried not to try too hard. Because I had lost two days without anything happening - and so I stopped practice and just went back to normal.
Mr. Chua : The way you practiced at first, you were too serious. Do you know what was hiding in the feeling ?
Mr. Mike : I think it was defilement - desire to see dhamma.
Mr. Chua : Yes, desire to see dhamma - sitting, standing, lying, walking, with desire - desire to see dhamma. But you could not see it. And defilement said let's stop practice because dhamma cannot occur. Therefore, when you lay down you let desire go. At that time there was no defilement in the feeling - so nama hearing occurred. After that defilement came back again. Everybody is like this, because they never had this feeling before - just 'we', 'we' all the time. When there is no 'we', at that time you feel frightened.

10th Meeting - Feb. 14, 1986
Mr. Chua : How is your practice ?
Mr. Mike : At night I was half awake, half asleep. When I awoke I felt frightened.
Mr. Chua : This is normal for people who live in a quiet place. When they awake they feel frightened. There are two causes for being frightened:
1) Living in a quiet place, and
2) When wisdom wants to arise, but falls off because it's not too strong.
Mr. Mike : Also, sometimes I have wandering mind, but if I have less wandering mind I can be in the present moment more easily.
Mr. Chua : You have more experience in your practice now. It's not like when you first came here. Then, when wandering mind occurred you didn't like it. Now if wandering mind occurs you don't feel aversion - it's just nama - dhamma, it's sabhava, it's not us. Right now, you have been here one and a half months. It's the same way with someone who studies agriculture, it takes a while to understand. Your yoniso is better too. Yoniso means you have to understand how to practice. A short definition of yoniso: is understanding the practice - understanding the truth of sabhava. If you don't understand how to practice, you won't have good yoniso
Yoniso prevents defilement. If you have no yoniso, defilement is working. The practice is very difficult. It is difficult because of yoniso. Because yoniso is to prevent defilement. Preventing defilement is very difficult. Defilement is more clever than you. If you prevent defilement in one place, it breaks out in another place. It you don't know the face of defilement, it's going to fool you. Defilement will make you think some other practice, such as samattha, is good, and the right practice. If you do the other practice, you are going to reach the Form Sphere of the Formless Sphere after you die. So defilement tells you, you will have no more old age, sickness and death if you reach these states. So you practice this way by doing samadhi, because defilement orders you . So wisdom cannot occur to end suffering.
Now we come back to this practice. For example, whenever you change the position, defilement says let's sit in this posture. It's better than that posture. This posture will help you see dhamma. And defilement thinks, walking rupa is better than sitting rupa. What do you think ? Which rupa is better in the four positions ?
Mr. Mike : I don't think about anything. But I like walking rupa.
Mr. Chua : That means defilement fools you - because you think walking rupa is better than the other, because it has less wandering mind. The fact is, the four positions are impermanent, suffering position, it means defilement is in. Defilement likes walking rupa.
The important thing in the practice is to realize suffering, because suffering has to be realized - in the Four Noble Truths. Suffering is the truth - the truth that is existence. Sitting rupa, walking rupa, standing rupa, lying rupa, is suffering. Must be changed to cure suffering. Don't forget this. The first step of the practice, you have to realize suffering. The more you realize suffering, the more defilement is eradicated. Because suffering is the truth. The function of the Four Noble Truths is that suffering has to be realized. The thing you have to realize first is ordinary suffering (dukkha - vedana): you feel pain in the position, and so you have to change the position. Ordinary suffering occurs in the old position. Suffering in the process of being cured (Sankkhara - dukkha) is what helps the change to the new position. When you realize this more and more, wisdom is going to see the three characteristics (dukkha - lakkhana). When wisdom sees the three characteristics more and more, wisdom is going to realize the truth of suffering (dukkha - sacca). Dukkha - sacca is the truth that we cannot change anything, that suffering is inherent - and it is the real truth. The way to practice is to start with ordinary suffering (dukkha - vedana) first, because this is easy to see. Right now the truth of suffering (dukkha - sacca) is in you, you are the Five Aggregates (rupa and nama) and they are dukkha - sacca. You would like to be permanent, you would like nothing to change, you would like everything to be in your control. You cannot do it. Because it is sabhava - dhamma - it is not a man, not a woman, not self. It is impermanent, suffering and not self. Rupa - nama has to get old, sick, and die - absolutely. You cannot escape. Because this, all of the other kinds of suffering with defilement follow: sorrow, lamentation, pain (bodily - which causes restlessness in the mind), etc.
The Tripitaka has three divisions: Vinayapitaka (morals of the monks); Suttapitaka (the sermons of the Buddha); Abbhidhammapitaka (the Analytic Doctrine). The purpose of Abhidhamma is to break body and mind into smaller parts, to demonstrate not self - such as the Five Aggregates, twelve Sense Spheres, etc. In short, this is just rupa and nama. In rupa and nama, do you see, in the Five Aggregates which one is you ? Is rupa you ? Is feeling you ? Perception you ? Volition you ? Consciousness you ? If you get angry with Mr. Frank, you are getting angry with the Five Aggregates. Which one are you angry with ? Because in the Five Aggregates each of them is not a man, a woman not Mr. Frank - just sabhava - dhamma. Who created the Five Aggregates ?
Mr. Mike : Defilement created the Five Aggregates.
Mr. Chua : Who created this 'we' that sits, stands, walks, etc ? Defilement created this 'we', that is the wrong view. To deal with defilement you have to know it's face, because it can fool you very easily. It can fool you by saying that some practices that teach you can get rid of defilement and thus reach nibbana - lead to a nibbana that is a heaven, that is happy. They fool you into believing that this heaven called nibbana is without old age, sickness and death.
The fact is, nibbana is not a place. Nibbana is the object of mind (citta) which is specifically called the Path Moment (magga - citta) and the citta which directly follows and is called fruition (phala - citta).
Right now when you sit, sitting rupa is the object. This is mundane. When you practice until wisdom occurs, it's still mundane. When you practice until you no longer have sitting rupa as an object, it then has nibbana as an object and that citta becomes supra - mundane - as path moment (magga - citta) and fruition moment (phala - citta). And then defilement is extinguished, and suffering is extinguished too, because that (mental state) citta that has nibbana as an object is the one that extinguishes defilement, and hence suffering.
In the Four Noble Truths, two are mundane and two are supra - mundane. The first two, the Truth of Suffering (Dukkha - sacca) and the Cause of Suffering (Samudaya -sacca) are mundane. Nirodha - Sacca (or nibbana) and the Eight-Fold Path (Magga - Sacca) are supra - mundane. However the Eight-Fold Path can also be mundane. Right now you are practicing - it's still in mundane. You practice by realizing suffering. Suffering is the Five Aggregates, or rupa and nama, or you .The more you realize suffering, the more craving (tanha) is eradicated. The more craving is eradicated, the closer you get to nirodha, or nibbana. That means the more suffering is realized the more the Eight-Fold Path (Magga - Sacca) is developed. These are functions of the Four Noble Truths. The word "function" refers to the fact that suffering (dukkha - sacca) is realized, craving (tanha) is eradicated, nibbana is reached, and the Eight-Fold Path is developed. Thus these Four Functions of the Noble Truths come together all at once - in the 14th yana.

11th Meeting - Feb. 26, 1986
Mr. Chua : How is your practice ?
Mr. Mike : Last night I couldn't sleep. I had wandering mind. Mind was distracted from lying rupa, and it came up to the building where the lessons were held every day. I though of all the different faces of the people who went to that building. Mr.Chua, Mr. Frank, Miss Vitoon. I knew this was wandering mind, and when this registered, it came back to lying rupa. At that time I registered that lying rupa was not me. It just looked like a doll, a body - a dead body, very clear. It was clearer than before. I was very frightened and I gripped the bed. After that I fell asleep again for about an hour. Then something else happened. I was just drifting off to sleep half-sleep, half-wakefulness - not quite asleep but in a kind of day-dream. In the dream I was looking in a mirror, but suddenly I realized that the face that was looking back at me wasn't my face at all. It was the face of a Thai monk. The features were basically the same (as mine), those of a young man, but as my vision in the dream became clearer, I saw that the skin was a bit darker and the eyes looked Oriental. So it was a big shock, as this dream felt very real as dreams often do, and it made me jump again. I didn't want to continue looking at the face, but it was as though someone was holding my head to prevent me from looking away. I woke up very shaken. I didn't know what was happening but the feeling of fear was very strong like when you see a horror movie. Except that this was coming from me.
Mr. Chua : The way you described the first time you saw lying rupa, that was correct. That was wisdom that saw lying rupa was not you. You saw the sabhava (truth) that rupa is not you. But about the dream, that is not vipassana wisdom. Because at that time you had no awareness (mindfulness and clear comprehension), because to see ultimate reality (sabhava) you have to have perfect awareness (mindfulness and clear comprehension), and that's not possible in a dream state. But this time, like the first time, you felt frightened. The frightened feeling you dreamt about came from the first experience.
The story you told is very difficult for people to do who don't have previous accumulations* - to see sabhava like this. Even one who doesn't have previous accumulations,they will see sabhava, but it takes a long time. But for you, you are very quick: you have been here a little more than one month, and you have seen sabhava very quickly, because you have previous accumulation. Right now, you are on the way, the way of vipassana wisdom, the way to end suffering.
Many people come here, but they cannot see dhamma right away, like you have. This time you have seen rupa was not you. The last time you have seen nama was not you. Before you thought it was you. But the way you have seen rupa and nama is separately. You saw rupa was not you and nama is not you. Some day you will see them together, almost simultaneously, a split-second apart, and this is called nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana. Like the "Path of Purity" (Visuddhi - Magga) says: first you see rupa, which is like a mirror. When the mirror becomes clearer, you will see the one who cleans the mirror, which is nama. Then, you see both together, the mirror (rupa) and the one who cleans the mirror (nama).
You are going to go back to England soon. I am sorry to see you go. Take dhamma with you and don't leave it here: remember the sabhava you have seen, and it will lead you out of suffering.