Boonkanjanaram


Practices (Patipatti) Supramundane Experience

This chapter covers the Supramundane Path as related by Aachan Naeb. These experiences were recorded about ten years after her actual practice.
A DISCUSSION of NIBBANA (by the late Aachan Naeb Mahaniranonda)
(This transcript of a tape-recording of an interview of Aachan Naeb,by Dr. Paiboon Watchiracheewin, and his group, occurred in March, B.E. 2520 (1977 A.D.) at Boonkanjanaram Meditation Center. Dr. Paiboon, a physician at Chonburi hospital, came to Boonkanjanaram with a group of people, and interviewed Aachan Naeb about her practice - specifically, what her experiences with nibbana were. The questions below were by Dr. Paiboon and the other members of the group.)
Quest : I would like to ask Mother about your practice.You began to study dhamma when you were about thirty years old. Is that correct? And I know that Mother studied with a Burmese Monk. What was the practice like?
A.Naeb : I began studying dhamma with the Burmese monk when I was a little past thirty. At that time I didn't know anything. Rupa and nama, I didn't know. Samatha and vipassana,I didn't know either. But I didn't like any meditation, where they close the eyes.
Quest : Why doesn't Mother like it?
A.Naeb : Because there is no reason for it. With your eyes open you don't know anything - how can you know with your eyes closed. In those days people liked to sit like a stone, and not move - and there's no wisdom that way.
Quest : How did you know the Burmese monk you studied with had come to Thailand?
A.Naeb : I heard it from Luang Prapan. He knew I was interested in vipassana. I always knew that in order to be true vipassana, one has to see the three characteristics. Luang Prapan told me the Burmese monk had come to teach vipassana at Ban Tawai, Yanawa, and his practice of vipassana does not allow verbalizing. He uses the present moment.\hat satisfied me, because I had experienced the present moment before. When I heard this, I thought, "Oh, that's good!" Luang Prapan said that with vipassana they know by themselves. And I asked,"How do they know? What do they know?" Luang Prapan said I should go and see the Burmese monk - and that he would introduce me to him. So we went to Ban Tawai, to see the monk. And Luang Prapan told the Burmese monk that Miss Naeb would like to study vipassana. But he just remained silent. So I asked him the question: "What is the way to see nibbana?" Because I had the feeling I wanted to use the present moment, because I had seen the present moment before. So I asked again, what technique do we use to see nibbana? And he said we must use mindfulness. I told him that I already knew that nibbana depends on sati (mindfulness), but what object should sati be mindful of? I was hoping he would answer the present moment, because I had the feeling sati should be in the present moment. At that time I didn't know theory at all. And he said sati has to be mindful in eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. So he told me to try to come and practice. This was Monday or Tuesday, and he told me to come and practice on Saturday. On Saturday, when I went to practice, Than Aachan asked me do you know rupa and nama yet, and at that time I said: "Not yet, I dislike theory." At that time I didn't know rupa and nama. But now I am sorry that I didn't Study Pali - because studying Pali and practicing together would be better - because you don't have to depend on other people. In Thailand at that time, nobody knew about nama - rupa. Even these words, they didn't know. Than Aachan was very surprised. "You mean they don't practice vipassana in Thailand?" I said they think they practice vipassanavipassana, but they don't really. They practice Samatha, and they practice breathing in and out - and other types of concentration development, and they think it is vipassana. Than Aachan said, "If they think they practice vipassana and they don't know rupa and nama - what do they use for vipassana? Do they just use imagination? "Because vipassana has to have an object, something to bring about wisdom." I said, I don't know." Because they think they practice vipassana, and that time I didn't know about rupa and nama either.
Quest : Did Luang Papuan understand dhamma before?
A.Naeb : He didn't know before, but he was the translator for Than Aachan, when Thais come to practice. Then he had to translate what is rupa and what is nama for them. So Than Aachan told Luang Prapan to teach rupa and nama to me, according to the six sense doors (ayatana).
Quest : How long was it, Mother, until you understood rupa and nama?
A.Naeb : Not too long. Only two or three days, because it's not difficult. I can remember nama and rupa from the six sense doors. When seeing, what is rupa and what is nama? When hearing, what is rupa and what is nama? When Than Aachan saw that I already knew, he let me practice. Practicing vipassana had to do at that time with seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and of the mind knowing mind object. Practicing vipassana at that time we had to observe when the eye sees, the ear hears, etc. So I observed like that for about three months more.
Quest : At that time you were alone in the kuti, Mother?
A.Naeb : I was alone in the kuti, and I'm one of those who is very afraid of ghosts. I'm afraid like a crazy person. In my house I can't stay alone in a room. If there's a dark corner I have to look into it first, to see if there's ghost. The mirror, too. I can't look into a mirror. Even the image of a Buddha, I cannot look at it, or walk by it. When I walk by my heart jumps. Do you know why? Because I'm afraid the image of the Buddha might nod to me. So this is just imagination.
When I was alone in the kuti I looked out of the window and I saw a cemetery with a bunch of coffins, at Wat Don, in Yanawa. My kuti was very close to the cemetery, so I was very afraid, because I'm afraid of ghosts. In the evening I didn't go to a funeral if the body was going to be displayed.
After observing rupa and nama, and I caught the present moment, I was not afraid of ghosts at that time. Because I was not thinking about anything - just seeing the present moment. Now, I realized that it was just my imagination that made me afraid of ghosts - because the mind was out of the present moment, and thinking about things in the past, and I became afraid. When I realized that, I realized if we think we are not afraid we are not afraid. If we think we are afraid we are afraid. This means we fool ourselves. Being afraid is not the ghost fooling us, but we fool ourselves. In the past I could not stay in darkness. If I stepped outside into the dark, I had to hurry because I was afraid a ghost would catch my feet. But after I realized I was just fooling myself, my fear went away. I practiced three months more, almost four.
Quest : Did Than Aachan come to interview you every day?
A.Naeb : Yes. Every day in the evening. And Luang Prapan was the translator. Than Aachan asked about nama-rupa every day to see if I had any experiences with nama-rupa-because all dhamma is in nama-rupa. If we don't have experience with nama-rupa, we will never know dhamma. It's like reading a book. Every book consists of letters from A to Z (the alphabet) - and that's all. And dhamma has nama-rupa and that's all. If you don't know the alphabet you can't read a book. If you don't know nama-rupa you can't ever know about dhamma.
After my fear went away, my mind was very bright. Sitting in the room I felt very light.
Quest : Did Mother catch the present moment at this time?
A.Naeb : No. At that time I was out of the present moment. Concentration was strong. I could see many bright lights in the dark room, but when I lifted the matches nearby, I couldn't see the matches.
Quest : Did you see by the mind? You didn't see by the eye?
A.Naeb : I saw by the mind. It was nimitta I saw by. But I didn't really see. Because it was actually dark, and when I lifted the match I couldn't see it. I didn't know my concentration was strong at that time.
Quest : Was this defilements of insight, or not?
A.Naeb : No. At that time vipassana wisdom hadn't occurred yet. And the bright lights soon disappeared.
Than Aachan came to interview me every day. He asked did I understand rupa and nama yet? It's like A-Z. All dhamma comes from nama-rupa. So we have to know nama and rupa first. If we don't catch nama and rupa, vipassana can't occur. Why? Because we have to see nama and rupa as impermanent, as suffering, and as not self. That means we cannot control nama-rupa. Nama and rupa are conditioned by cause leading to effect.
When I saw that nama-rupa is not self, I felt sad. When I was alone it was all right, but when Than Aachan came to interview me, and asked how was it today? I was crying. I tried to swallow my tears, and I could not talk. I did not want hem to see I was crying, because I was a grown woman. So I asked Than Aachan, when he practiced vipassana, did you ever cry or not?
Quest : What did he answer, Mother?
A.Naeb : Yes. He cried too. So I felt relieved.
Quest : This time, did you see not-self (anatta)?
A.Naeb : Yes. This time I had seen anatta, but later on when I would see nibbana, it would be by impermanence.
Because I had seen not-self (anatta), I felt lonely - because I had the feeling there is no self anymore, and nothing that belongs to self. The mind was sad and lonely. Like somebody put me all alone on a beach in the evening, with the forest behind me and the sea ahead, and I could not go anywhere. That was the way the mind felt. The mind no longer had anything to depend on.
When I went back to practice, strong concentration occurred again. If the mind is really in the present moment, strong samadhi cannot get in. But if the mind is out of the present moment strong samadhi can get in. Strong samadhi was there for many days. I felt comfortable and didn't want to observe any rupa - just keep silent. The mind felt very light. I wanted to stay like that all the time. so I told Luang Prapan to tell Than Aachan not to come to interview me, because I have nothing to tell. Luang Prapan did. So Than Aachan didn't come. The next evening I repeated my instructions and Than Aachan did not come again. Also, the Third day, too. Now, Than Aachan was concerned. So he thought, what happened, what did she see? Than Aachan and Luang Prapan came to ask me about my feelings, and why I didn't want to be interviewed. I told him my mind right now was calm, silent, still and comfortable. So Than Aachan asked, how long, how many days have you had this feeling? I said five days like this and I didn't want to change anything. Than Aachan said you can't do that - you have to do something about this. You have to stop these feelings so vipassana can occur. If they're not gone, nibbana cannot occur. So Than Aachan told me to wait in the sala, which is very long. He told me not to wait in an easy way but to take very long steps, in an unnatural way. This will bring down concentration effects (samadhi). So I walked like that for one hour. The cool, calmmind disappeared - very fast - and changed to a new feeling. This feeling was very bright. Now I realized why Than Aachan told me to do something about this. I walked just a little bit more and then stopped, because the cool, calm feeling of the mind had disappeared. So I went to my room.
The feeling in the mind at that time was very clear, like a flashlight. The mind was very clear and bright. I tried to think about something but the mind was still very bright. I realized I had a new feeling, but at that time I didn't know. Later on I knew I had a new feeling - and that's why Than Aachan asked me to do the walking exercise to change this feeling.
After the walking exercise, I continued to practice. The mind was very bright, beginning at night time. The mind was very bright, very clear, like clear water. I didn't have to deliberately observe, but mindfulness occurred automatically. I was surprised. Why was mindfulness very good like this? So I tried to test mindfulness by lifting the mosquito net and dropping it - to see if the mind would observe it. The mind seemed to be aware of all actions.
Next morning, after lunch, I had nothing to do, and I just lay down to rest. When I practiced I only had one meal a day - only lunch. At 10:30 they brought the pinto (food container) and I ate the food. Then I didn't know what to do. Than Aachan didn't want me to have any guests. He always reclined in a rattan lounge chair facing the temple entrance, and he could see everybody coming to the meditation area, and had the people sent to him first. He asked them what they wanted here. They often said they wanted to see me, because they hadn't seen me for a long time. He told them, you don't have to see her, because she's all right, and if you talk to her that will keep her out of the present moment.
After I had lunch, having nothing to do, I just lay down on my side and had a rest. When the thought occurred that I should turn over, wisdom knew that this was nibbana - very briefly, very fast. So, I was frightened. The mind was awake and very bright. So, I stopped to turn over. I wanted Than Aachan to come interview me this time. I was waiting for him. I waited until evening.
Quest : The way you saw nibbana - was it long or not?
A.Naeb : Not too long. The mental state (citta) that governs path consciousness (called maggavithi) was not too long. Only seven thought moments. That's all. Seven thought moments is very brief. But I can remember them all. At the first thought moment, I had some feeling. And feeling went into another thought moment. And after finishing, maggavithi (the citta that governs path consciousness), came down to mundane.(See figure 1, p.91.) When wisdom (panna) saw nibbana, it was seen by me through impermanence. The first three thought moments were each characterized by impermanence - but I had the feeling that each was different. And I knew that phala-citta (fruition) was not the same as magga-citta (path consciousness) and how many times it occurred, I could remember. At that time I didn't know theory (pariyatti) at all. Before this, I asked Aachan about Anulomanna (Knowledge of Adaptation and Conformity) and Gotrabhunana (Purity of Knowledge), but Aachan said I don't need to know now. Later on, when I studied abhidhamma, then I knew what they were.
Quest : Could you explain to me again about nibbana, Mother?
A.Naeb : I was very glad and happy when I realized nibbana. When I practiced I didn't want to talk to anybody. But when this happened (nibbana) I didn't want to lie down anymore. I opened the back door, and looked at people who passed by, and talked to the daughter of Luang Prapan, who was washing the clothes. At that time I wanted to talk to people. Luang Prapan was surprised when he saw me talking to his daughter. I asked Luang Prapan to tell Aachan to come and interview me.
In the evening Aachan came to see me. So he asked me, how was it today? I said, "It is all right. I already know it." Than Aachan asked me, "What do you know?" I said, "Knowing nibbana." Aachan was surprised. "Why? How do you know? Can you explain to me?" So I drew a picture so he could see, and told him at that time the mind had this feeling, and that feeling, and how many thought moments, and how the thought moments felt, and I knew each thought moment, and each thought moment was not the same. Path consciousness, the citta that has nibbana as an object (magga-citta), is not the same as Fruition Consciousness (Phala-citta). The feeling at that time was that Path Consciousness had only one thought moment, and then Fruition consciousness (Phala citta) followed. And the feeling at that time was, I knew Magga-citta and Phala-citta were different. And after that it went down to mundane again.
Quest : Can you explain the difference between Magga-citta and Phala-citta for us?
A.Naeb : Phala- citta (Fruition Consciousness) is more happy than regular practice. Fruition is like pouring very cool water over oneself.
At that point, in maggavithi (the citta that governs path consciousness), every step changes. This feeling has two thought moments, that feeling has three thought moments, and this feeling has one thought moment. I could remember the whole thing.
When I drew a picture for Than Aachan, I had these feelings. The feeling is like the mind is just about to realize the other shore (supramundane wisdom).
So Than Aachan said, "Saddhu (Well said). Khun Naeb has the perfection." Than Aachan would like me to study theory and didn't want me to go home. He wanted to teach me until I understood the theory behind my experiences. He knew that there was no nibbana in Thailand.
Quest : You didn't continue practice, did you?
A.Naeb : I did. I continued practice. but this time I was not frightened. After I had practiced for a little while, I realized I couldn't do it any more; the will was gone to do any more.
Quest : Did you have Paccavekkhana (Reflection), or not?
A.Naeb : At that time I didn't have it. I didn't know what defilement had been abandoned and what defilement still existed. I was not a clever one.
Quest : At that time, when you saw nibbana, did you have any doubts?
A.Naeb : It (doubt) passed by, after the first Javana (impulsion process) began. Then, Than Aachan told me to try to study. Why? because then I can be an Aachan, and I will have the marvel of teaching. So then I can tell the yogis how to understand the practice.
So, I said no, I cannot be a teacher. Than Aachan said, why not? I told him didn't know theory at all. To be an Aachan one has to know theory. Than Aachan said it was not important, because if I study now I would understand more. Because the sabhava dhamma (ultimate reality) that I realized would help me to understand the theory better, when I study. Because I know the character of sabhava dhamma. When we talk about a word, then I will understand what it means. He said theory is not important. Practice is more important. While practicing we don't know the words to describe what we see. In practice, we understand ultimate reality. But then we must study theory, so we will know the words to describe ultimate reality better.
Aachan said, when I wanted to go home, I shouldn't go right now, unless I had something necessary to do. He would like me to study Abhidhamma. Because he knew that in Thailand there was no Abhidhamma at that time. Since I had just finished practice I should be able to remember clearly every vithi-citta (a consciousness of the cognitive series) But if I went home and didn't study Abhidhamma, it wouldn't be easy.
In the morning, Than Aachan wrote Abhidhamma in the Burmese language, for example, "citta-cetasika (consciousness plus mental properties)." He wrote in Burmese and Luang Prapan translated into Thai, and had me memorize it every day. He started first with rupa. He didn't teach citta (consciousness) first. Because rupa is gross and easier to see. The way he taught, he followed the Five Aggregates (Khandas): matter (rupa), feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness. There are two ways of teaching. Following the teaching of Buddhaghosa's "Path of Purification", they teach rupa (body) first. When following Abhidhammatha-Sangaha, they teach citta (consciousness) first.
He taught rupa first because rupa is easier to see than citta (consciousness), and easier to remember.
Quest : The time that you practiced, was that during the war?
A.Naeb : Yes. At that time, the Second World War was going on. When the war ended, I was still studying. When studying I was able to understand that at that time this dhamma occurred, at that time that time that dhamma occurred.
As for as theory, Than Aachan did not want the student to know theory, while he was practicing. He said he didn't want them to be distracted while practicing. He said if you didn't understand sabhava dhamma, and you just knew theory, it is very difficult to realize.
Quest : When you studied, did you understand right away?
A.Naeb : Yes. When Aachan told me about a word and the characteristics of a word, I knew it from practice. And I knew at that time, this dhamma occurred and that dhamma occurred. When I studied the "Path of Purification (Vissudhi-Magga)" , I understood everything I read. I didn't like theory, then. Later on, Aachan told me to study Pali. I didn't want to hurt his feelings by saying that I would rather not - so I studied a little while and then stopped, because I thought it was not necessary.
As to the yanas, Than Aachan didn't want the student to ask about them, unless he had seen ultimate reality. Than Aachan always said, "Later on, you don't need to know now. "Here, he was referring to the statement, "Paccatan veditabbo vinnuhi" ("to be seen each man for himself") which means the one who realizes nibbana cannot just read it in a book, but must know it by himself. At that time, before I realized nibbana, I disliked theory, I didn't study theory - but I can remember them all - the whole seven javana (impulsions). Even though I didn't know theory, I practiced right. If the cause is right the result will occur automatically.
After that, when I studied theory I understood it all.
Quest : The second time you had strong samadhi, and Than Aachan told Mother to reduce Samadhi, walking long steps - was this vipassanupakilesa (defilements of insight)?
A.Naeb : Yes. But at that time, I didn't know what it was.
Quest : Did you realize suffering?
A.Naeb : I have seen anatta (not-self).
Quest : Did seeing one characteristic cause you to see all three?
A.Naeb : Whatever is impermanent is suffering, and whatever is impermanent and suffering is not-self. Realizing that one characteristic leads to all three depends on the parami (perfections) of that yogi in previous life. Some yogi will see maggavithi (the citta that governs path consciousness) by impermanence, some see it by suffering, and some by not-self (anatta). But to see one, means to see three - because they are all the same.
Quest : Did you repeat the path and reach the Second Path (sakadagami-magga)?
A.Naeb : Yes. It occurred a second time. But it was not as frightening as the first time - not too strong, not too clear.
Quest : The second time, were you liberated by impermanence?
A.Naeb : Yes.
Quest : It is a surprise that Mother has seen nibbana without knowing theory. Why didn't Mother practice to go further than the Second Path? Was your mind incapable of going any further? Were you afraid the mind would not be successful?
A.Naeb : I don't know. but I have the feeling, that's enough. I am still practicing, though.
Quest : How was it, Mother?
A.Naeb : It was not surprising. About the same as it was the first time. But the first time was more exciting. The second time it was not clear like the first time.
Quest : So, you are not sure you have seen Nibbana the second time?
A.Naeb : I was sure - but not excited. Because I had already had that feeling the first time.
Quest : The second time, did the wisdom know this is nibbana or not?
A.Naeb : Yes. The second time is easier, because we have seen it before. It's like a path we have already walked on.
Quest : Are you sure about the second time?
A.Naeb : I didn't pay too much attention to it. Because the second time I didn't feel glad like before. But I was surprised that at that time, when seeing nibbana, I knew every thought moment. But right now we don't know every thought moment.
Quest : Because it was very fast?
A.Naeb : Yes. It was very fast. But knowing was very clear.
Quest : Was it like Sariputta? He took one step and knew the whole seven javana (impulsion process)?
A.Naeb : Yes. He knew the rising and falling in one step.
Quest : Just in one step?
A.Naeb : Yes. Only one step. Because he was very clever. When he lifted the foot up, the feeling fell away. When the feeling fell away, the world (five khandas/aggregates) fell away. When he lifted his foot again, the new feeling rose and fell away.
Quest : Was defilement extinguished before realizing nibbana?
A.Naeb : Kilesa (defilement) has to extinguish before. At that time suffering is gone.
Quest : Did you have paccavekkhana (reflection, 16th Yana) the second time?
A.Naeb : Paccavekkhana has five considerations. I had only three : Magga-citta (Path consciousness), Phala-citta (Fruition consciousness) and Nibbana. Paccavekkhana (Reflection) is like you had a dream - and when you wake up you remember the dream. The first three Reflections are general- for everyone. But the last two (defilement abandoned, defilement still existing) are special. Only the very clever one knows these.
So, the Lord Buddha said, "Paccatan veditabbo vinnuhi" (to be seen each man for himself"). But today the Aachans tell the student what he should be seeing in each yana - and ask the student, is that right or not? Some students say "yes," and some say "no." If the student says no, the Aachan doesn't ask the question any more. This is very funny.
Than Aachan told me his story. When he attained nibbana in Burma he wanted to go to his home monastery, but his Aachan told him to stay and listen to the interviews with students, so he could get some experience in interviewing people. Then, Than Aachan finished the Tripitaka - studying Vinaya, Sutta, and Abhidhamma in five years. Even though he finished the Tripitaka, he had to study two more years to get the various words in the Triptaka to match each other. For example, the word "santosa" (contentment, satisfaction with whatever comes) is used in the Sutta Pitaka; whereas in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, there is no "santosa-cetasika."
Quest : In Abhidhamma what do they call the word "santosa?"

(Another student. Another day)
A.Naeb : In Abhidhamma, they use the word "alobhacetasika" (non-desire).
(Here, the discussion got into other subjects, and so the transcription is curtailed at this point.)